# Phenomenal World

## Cash Transfer, Knowledge Transfer

### An interview with Johannes Haushofer

Johannes Haushofer is assistant professor of Psychology and Public Affairs at Princeton University. His work includes development economics, behavioral economics, psychology, and neurobiology. We spoke to him primarily about a neopolicy idea on which he has unique expertise: unconditional cash transfers (UCTs). Along with Jeremy Shapiro, he has led research on GiveDirectly’s UCT program in Kenya, and his work on short-term and long-term effects there has both provided the field with new evidence and set a course for deeper questions. Now Johannes is starting to work on a UBI pilot in a major US city, across the developing-nation/developed-nation divide.

We spoke to Johannes broadly about (1) where he sees the state of the evidence, (2) what conclusions can be drawn from developing nations to developed, and (3) his larger vision for the march of evidence regarding policies like this.

We’re grateful that Johannes took the time to speak with us and to inaugurate this interview series. Interviewing him was Michael Stynes, who leads JFI, as well as Sidhya Balakrishnan and Lauren Burns-Coady of JFI. This interview has been condensed and edited.

MS: Johannes, first of all, thank you very much for speaking with us. Your work is incredibly important to the entire basic income/cash transfer research community and I’m happy that Lauren, Sidhya, and I will have the opportunity to talk through some of your work. We are particularly interested in the point in which a pilot intervention becomes viable policy. Here specifically I want to try to understand what the state of the evidence is in favor of unconditional cash transfers in the developing world, and how your research there might extend to the developed world. Can we start with an overview of the work you’ve done so far, particularly on cash transfers in Kenya?

## The "Next Big Thing" is a Room

If you don’t look up, Dynamicland seems like a normal room on the second floor of an ordinary building in downtown Oakland. There are tables and chairs, couches and carpets, scattered office supplies, and pictures taped up on the walls. It’s a homey space that feels more like a lower school classroom than a coworking environment. But Dynamicland is not a normal room. Dynamicland was designed to be anything but normal.

Led by the famous interface designer Bret Victor, Dynamicland is the offshoot of HARC (Human Advancement Research Community), most recently part of YCombinator Research. Dynamicland seems like the unlikeliest vision for the future of computers anyone could have expected.

Let’s take a look. Grab one of the scattered pieces of paper in the space. Any will do as long as it has those big colorful dots in the corners. Don’t pay too much attention to those dots. You may recognize the writing on the paper as computer code. It’s a strange juxtaposition: virtual computer code on physical paper. But there it is, in your hands. Go ahead and put the paper down on one of the tables. Any surface will do.